In Response to a Response to VegettoEX

OK Underfaker, you got my dander up. Your editorial A Response To VegettoEX raised some interesting points. However, I think you misinterpreted a lot of the material you commented on. Therefore, I'm going to explain how I think he intended his comments to be interpreted (and of course include lots of my own opinions on these subjects ^__^ ). Please note that I don't claim to speak for VegettoEX, I have no idea what's in his head. I just read his editorials. With that established, let's get going. Like everyone else is doing, I'm including quotes from the editorials in question. Underfaker's is in bold type, VegettoEX's in italics. The original article from the Dallas Observer is bracketed by these > <. Are we confused yet? ^__~

concerned about Dragonball Z to the point that you make a website over it, write articles for it, criticize it and pay good money for it.

Ok, the rabid label. I personally don't care if someone calls me a rabid fan or not, but I can see why VegettoEX objects to this. The term "rabid" has decidedly negative connotations. Here's the definition according to my dictionary : 1.afflicted with rabies. 2. extreme: fanatical. 3. raging: violent <rabid hostility>. Obviously, the first definition has nothing to do with this subject, but the other two... the second isn't so bad, although it is a little intense. The third, however, is definitely negative. I am a dedicated fan, but I am neither raging nor violent! I don't think VegettoEX is either. Nor are any number of webmasters out there. And I certainly hope you aren't. Unfortunately, the Dallas Observer article implies that anime fans are exactly that. Also unfortunately, they do have some basis for this view.

About the homosexual thing, I don't quite understand. Maybe its the wording, but it almost makes it seem like that VegettoEX is saying that FUNimation likes to group anyone that that disagrees with anything FUNimation has ever done is homosexual and/or has homosexual tendencies. Maybe I am reading this wrong or the wording is wrong, please say that this isn't the way its meant to be interpreted. An accusation of this sort is no laughing matter.

Yeah, I think you're reading it wrong. It's not FUNi that he was talking about here. The author of the article, Jimmy Fowler, chose "gay and crappy"as his example of "one typically charming e-mail diatribe" against FUNi's version of DBZ. In other words, FUNi's critics are all being lumped together as vulgar gay-bashers, which we are not. Many of us are not, anyway. VegettoEX objects to that generalization, and so do I. But he's not blaming FUNi for that. What he's doing is placing the blame squarely on the shoulders of the guilty parties: the illiterate morons who regularly bombard FUNi with profane, vulgar, misspelled flames. He's absolutely right. Cussing the company out, flaming them with four-letter words and calling them "gay" and "whores" is STUPID. It accomplishes absolutely nothing, save making the writer look like an idiot. Think about it. If someone came up to you and cussed you out, would you feel like giving them what they wanted? If you're a normal human and not a saint, you wouldn't give them the time of day, much less give their opinions any respect. As long as fans do this to FUNi, fans will not get much respect from FUNi. Remember the old cliche: you can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar. And while I'm on the subject, spelling does count. Bad spelling and poor grammar make the writer look mentally deficient. Before anyone yells at me for saying this, let me add that I know perfectly well that the one does not necessarily mean the other. I've known several people who were pretty sharp but couldn't spell worth a lick. My point is that regardless of your actual intelligence, poor spelling makes you look dumb. So use your spell-check and a dictionary, huh? You'll be taken more seriously. OK, I'm done ranting on this subject. =P

large stretch of road with no speed limit called the "Autobahn", so does this mean that Germany has supreme faith in the driving abilities of their people? Should America drop the speed limit law? England has televisions shows with full frontal nudity, should we sit down and watch that with younger siblings or your own children? Just because"everyone else does it", doesn't mean its not the right thing. Mexico...well, I won't get into the stuff that you can do legally in Mexico that you can't in the U.S. I've mentioned this before in another editorial I did and that is other countries are different thanAmerica.

Moving on... you're right, the lemming thing isn't necessarily the right thing, but the reverse is also true: the fact that this is America and we have different rules from England, France, Spain, Mexico(and Japan) does not by definition make our rules OK, anymore than it makes theirs better than ours. It's the results of those rules that matter.

Laws are decided with the best interest of the people in mind.

BWAHAHAHAHAAA!!! What country are you from?

Censorship is one of these things. Its sad but that is just the way things are. And no, our government doesn't think much of us and our t.v. habits. They never have. It all boils down to the fact that mothers run the country and decide what gets put on t.v.

I'm not debating this point, but I fail to see why we should just throw up our hands and resign ourselves to it. You know what they say: "evil wins when good men do nothing." OK, I know I'm being melodramatic here. But if fans don't bother complaining because they think they won't get anywhere, then they will prove themselves right--- they will never get what they want. This spring we'll finally be getting subtitled DBZ, on DVD. It's only a small step, but it's a move in the right direction, anyway. This release is due entirely to the efforts of the fans who repeatedly asked for it. If FUNi doesn't know what we want, they won't give it to us. As long as we can convince them that such things are to their financial benefit, then they will try to give us these things. Now if we could just get them to air subs on tv....

While I am on the subject, what is the difference between what we see and the "true" form? Is it because they change dialogue? Is it because the nudity is edited out? Perhaps blood exploding from people's mouths are turned down a bit. Do these things REALLY affect the appeal and liking of DBZ? Its not as if they change the story (Frieza is an evil homosexual trying to gang rape Namek with his Ginyu Force and its up to the Christian Elite Goku to stop him). The story is still the same, its just the delivery is changed. This all goes back to the Subbie vs. Dubbie argument.

YES, these things do change the story. Changing the "delivery" changes the effect of the story. If you don't believe me, ask any director of theater, film, or television. They tell their actors how to say their lines-- precisely because the delivery must be right. When these changes are made, the major plot is still there, but the effect of the scenes are changed---rarely for the better. The removal of blood takes out a lot of a fight's visual impact. When characters get smacked around but don't bleed, the fight seems less "real." (yes, I know it's a cartoon) Blood and bruises are a visual sign of injury. Without it, the characters do not appear to be hurt, so it looks like they're not really playing for keeps. Dramatic tension is lost. The frustrating thing is that it really is not necessary to remove blood (it's just another of those dumb arbitrary rules >:{ ). Blood in a tv show does not necessarily desensitize viewers to violence. In fact, it can have the opposite effect. What makes the difference is HOW the violence and blood is presented. If it is presented in a way that glorifies killing-- makes killing look fun or cool, etc.-- then it may be a problem. But if presented in a way that demonstrates the negative consequences in a fight, than it's all to the good. That's DBZ for you. The good guys fight when they have to, but they pay for it. Boy, do they pay. They get beat up, smashed, crunched, fried, shot. Sometimes they die. Sometimes they watch friends die. Winning comes at a price-- by the time the bad guy is defeated, everyone who's left is mostly just relieved that it's over. That all may be exciting to watch, but it doesn't exactly make you want to join in their battles! If you have to justify DBZ's violence, you could say that it shows that fighting isn't very good for you. ^__~ Unfortunately, FUNi's edits have blunted that effect of the show. As for the nudity, the main problem I have with the cover-ups is that they look to be exactly that. When something is obviously painted in to cover up naughty bits, it distracts from the scene (remember that convienient little tree in front of Gohan's crotch?) And they cut A LOT of material the first two seasons... I think about ten episodes worth, if I remember right. So out of every episode they showed, a sixth of the material was gone. Much of these edits were not made for content, they were done to eliminate as much of the non-action material as possible. Me, I LIKE the non-action material. My favorite part of DBZ is the characters, character development. A lot of that stuff was hacked out. The dialogue.... well, I'll get into that later. By the way, since when is Frieza an "evil homosexual?" I guess since FUNi gave him an old lady's voice and that...ah...suggestive dialogue (Whatever turns you on, big boy =P). Considering the pains they've gone to removing any sexual suggestiveness from the show, I'm surprised they put that in. And since when is Goku a Christian? I've never heard of any religious sentiment coming from him.

phrase tossed in the original newspaper article to say "editing", because I don't see any evidence of "Americanize".

"Americanize" is one of those new verbed nouns. It's actually in the dictionary under "american". It's not quite the same thing as "editing." To americanize a show is to remove or change any non-american cultural aspects that americans in general may not relate to, so that there's nothing in the show americans won't understand. As VegettoEX said, "God forbid you bring a little culture over!" This is one of the aspects of adaptation that really bugs me. I for one prefer to see the show on its own terms, foreign culture and all. It makes the show more interesting. And you don't have to understand everything to like it. Personally, I find the creative process and cultural background of a foreign show fascinating.

No, it isn't up to FUNimation to do a respectable job on DBZ.

If it's not up to them, who is it up to? They're the ones with the rights to this thing.

Is their job to get as much merchandise is sold and make a profit. FUNimation isn't around for the people, its around for the money. Any company is like that. What do they care if there are standards to be met? There are voices to be dubbed and scenes to be changed. People will still shell out the cash and THAT is all that matters in the end.

True. Business is business, and DBZ is the result of business. A lot of people slam FUNi for being profit-motivated. Hey, if they don't make some money with this stuff they won't be able to keep producing DBZ. I think profit margins are a lot tighter than many people realize. However, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be pushed to produce a quality product.

>(turns out pools of blood and blood stains are A-OK) and what is called in the kid's entertainment biz "imitatable violence" as opposed to "fantasy violence" -- say, kicking someone in the face vs. destroying a mountain with energy blasts from your palms.<

America continues to baffle me.

you can actually do that. You can kick someone in the face, that is physically possible. Destroying a mountain with an energy blast is "fantasy violence" because you can not blow up a mountain with energy blasts. Little Johnny can kick Freddie in the face, but he can't use his Gallick Gun to blow the whole thing up. The blood thing baffles me as well, unless they mean that the actually visual transmission of blood (spurting, coughing or flowing) is wrong because we see where it comes from and how it can be drawn. Pools of blood and blood stains don't show where it comes from. *shrugs shoulder* Stupid as that may sound that is probably the reasoning. Probably the same reasoning that said a more proper finishing move for Johnny Cage on the Super Nintendo version of Mortal Kombat was you can't uppercut his head off, but you can punch straight through his chest all day long. Or that Kano can't pull their heart out, but he is more than welcome to stab them with his knife. America- Get used to the confusion. There are 20 million other people with the same lost feeling.

I agree with your explanation, but not with your sense of resignation. That may be their reasoning, but that doesn't mean it's OK for them to do it. See my previous answer to blood edits. Actually, I think their efforts to edit imitatable violence are kind of funny. Much of the fighting in DBZ takes place at such high speed, viewers haven't a chance in hell of imitating the moves. Besides, it's animated. While the action is well-drawn, animated motion is usually much harder to imitate.

What is a nerd? You can classify them by two things- Looks and Methods.

Did you take that from the Manual for Nerd Classification?

You are using the Look method, not the Method method.

O__o Ummm...is the "Method method" anything like the "breathing method?"

Method merely says that if you do something "uncool" then you are a nerd. If that is the case, then calling Goku a nerd is understandable. He is "nerd"-y because he is a goody-two-shoes and naive. Gullible and a sucker. Is that nerdy? If thats how you look at things.

OK, here's my dictionary again. Definition of "nerd": An unpopular or socially inept person, esp. one regarded as excessively studious. Does this description fit Goku? I really don't think so. He is popular, and while he is rather naive socially , he's not inept. Excessively studious? Goku??? BWAHAHAHA!!!

Yes, we all wish we could be innocent. But the way you are interpreting things is WAY TOO WRONG.

Heh, here's the pot calling the kettle black. Down, boy, down!

innocent?

Maybe because he is.

and start throwing around the innocent label.

OK, we won't throw it around. Let's pin it down and dissect it instead.^__^ (drags out trusty dictionary again) Innocent: 1.Free from sin or wrongdoing: sinless. 2. Not guilty legally of a given crime. 3. Harmless: innocuous. 4. Not experienced: naive. 5. Guileless: artless. Now, do any of these apply to Goku? 1. I'd say this one does. Goku's a good guy, doesn't hurt anyone if he can help it. 2. Well, I guess this depends on the crime. Maybe he's guilty of a Permanent Bad Hair Day. 3. Yeah, he's pretty harmless. He's only dangerous to bad guys who ask for it. 4. Surely there's no argument with this one. A lot of gags in dragonball are based on his total cluelessness regarding just about everything. 5. This fits him too. Goku's not much of a plotter. He's completely honest, doesn't try to fool anyone. Hmmmm, looks like all of these definitions apply to him. Innocence, naivete is one of those characteristics that was established for Goku at the beginning of dragonball. Toriyama-san frequently played it for laughs. The thing you need to note here is that this basic element of his personality has remained essentially unchanged. In spite of the things he has experienced and done, he has not become cynical or calculating. He still expects to see good from people. He regards the world from much the same perspective he did as a child. That's why he can still be labeled as innocent.

Maybe Vegeta does say "F*ck".

No, he doesn't. Expletives fall into the category of "culturally sensitive" words. This means that an understanding of the culture from which the word originated is necessary in order to fully understand the meaning of the word. A literal translation doesn't work. We'll use your example, "f*ck". The literal definition means "have sex," but no one would substitute "f*ck" for, say, "make love." They both literally mean the same thing, but their connotations are diametrically opposite. This is typical of expletives, including Japanese ones. That's what makes their translation so tricky. Connotation doesn't translate well. Vegeta doesn't say "f*ck," he says things like "kuso!" My dictionary translates that as meaning "sh*t" or "damn it," but as to what the word actually connotes, I don't know. However, the Japanese have a very polite society, they do not "express themselves" nearly as freely as we do. Hence, my impression is that their expletives do not reach the degree of crudity that ours do. And considering that the show was aimed at teenagers in Japan, I suspect they would not put in words as crude as "f*ck." Of course, FUNi's version doesn't sound all that great either. Still, they don't have much choice--- aired as a kids' show, nothing but the very mildest of cusswords are allowed. Though too-mild expletives sound funny as well. Did anyone else besides me laugh their butts off as Vegeta was racing around Frieza's ship yelling "shoot!" and "darn it!"? :P

You criticize FUNimation for the corny new dialogue, but what sounds "cool", "You friggin' blew up my house!" or "You f*cking blew up my house!"

The dialogue should not be based on what sounds "cool." Dialogue is appropriately based on the atmosphere of the story and the speaking pattern of the character-- it has to be consistent with what has been established.

Me, I don't care.

Me, I do. So do a lot of other people. When the dialogue sounds inconsistent with the atmosphere of the story or the personality and established speaking patterns of the character, it disrupts the story.

Then you go and say that you know what the dialogue is supposed to be like. I don't think anyone REALLY knew what it was supposed to be like except for the creator of the show.

Huh? What? What are you talking about? He WROTE IT DOWN! Look in the manga, it's right there. He also had a hand in the anime from the start of dragonball to the end of DBZ. And from what I have seen, the scenes in the manga were reproduced in the anime almost verbatim, down to the dialogue. Sure, they added a lot of material, but what Toriyama-san had created was essentially the same. We know what the dialogue is supposed to be like because it's all right there. Japanese is not a secret code. While some concepts and words do not translate well, most of the language can be translated fairly clear. Otherwise, no one could speak Japanese but native-born Nihon-jin! The dialogue that Toriyama-san wanted is in there. It is what establishes each character's pattern of speech and behavior.

Now about the God of Love thing...I have no idea at all. None. Maybe it was "Bring Crack To Work Day" or something.

Heh, heh.

I reiterate the fact that it's absurd to say "fans," here. It's the idiotic fansubbers who have a child say"fuck" that's the problem.

these tapes...I think that qualifies as being a fan. What more do they have to do?

I don't think he was saying that fansubbers are not fans. However, all fans are not fansubbers! Subbing is a big job, so only a few people are doing it. Therefore, fansubbers make up only a small fraction of the fan population. Thus, it is not fans as a whole that are throwing swear words into the scripts, it is those few individuals who are engaged in subbing--- and not all of them engage in much cursing either.

like the Catholic Purgatory, which is that you don't burn for eternity, just for a while until you soul is cleansed and you can enter Heaven. Not the exact same thing, but almost. Instead, the soul is reincarnacted. I had more of a problem with "HELL" than I did with "HFIL". In my belief, Hell is filled with demons, fire and brimstone. So maybe FUNimation changed the name from "HELL" because it didn't represent the popular Christian Hell, but rather a different place, hence the Home For Infinite Losers.

No, they changed the name because childrens' television producers in this country will not touch anything remotely smelling of religion with a two-hundred foot pole. No matter what kind of hell was represented, somebody would have been screaming about it. If they had presented HFIL as hell, someone would have been pissed that it wasn't fire and brimstone. If the hell had been depicted as fire and brimstone, someone would have been pissed they were "scaring kids" or that they were showing a christian hell and not giving equal time to other religions' ideas. So FUNi changed it, because they knew they just couldn't win. Not their fault, I guess. *sigh* But the point is that Toriyama-san was not trying to represent anyone's idea of hell. Not yours, not catholics', not protestants', NOBODY'S. What he did was to take a variety of ideas on the afterlife from a number of religions, threw them together in a mishmash, and tried to make them as funny as possible. DBZ is not a theology dissertation. Come on, what religion looks on hell as a theme park?? The planet Earth of DBZ is not our Earth. He was not suggesting that this is what the afterlife might actually be like. It was more like, "wouldn't it be funny if..." The whole shebang was A JOKE. SATIRE. NOT MEANT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY. Unfortunately, America can't take a joke when it comes to religion.

While on the subject, what is wrong with the "next dimension" concept?

It sucks. Sounds like a bad acid trip.

Isn't Death considered another dimension?

I dunno about that one. I've never considered it to be.

In fact, with the wording "next dimension" it would lead to belief that they don't die, per se, but rather go onto another level for something new. And if good, they go onto the "next dimension" of Heaven and if bad then they go to Hell, get the soul cleaned up then reincarnated. "Next dimension" works fine.

It doesn't work, and I'll tell you why.(I know you're drooling with anticipation) The next dimension thing sucks a lot of the drama out of DBZ conflict. What sounds like a worse experience to you, dying or taking a trip to the next dimension? Risk adds a lot of tension to a fight. The chance of being "phased into another dimension" seems much less risky than the chance of dying! Death applies high stakes to the fight that viewers can easily appreciate. After all, the good guys, may be wished back,but then again, they may not. The prospect of losing one's life or one's friends is a hell of a lot more dramatic than taking an involuntary trans-dimensional vacation. Death sounds much more grim and final.

forget that the majority of America is a Christian-based religion. If you start bringing over a religious hierarchy of demons and gods then you are just begging for trouble. I mean, the name Mr. Satan is crying out for mothers to ban the show. Lets not even start on the crowd chanting "SATAN, SATAN, SATAN!". Yeah, that'll fly with a lot of people here. Not everyone is open-minded.

No freakin' kidding. It's a shame.

considered nudity. They painted over a sign (written in Japanese, mind you) that read "Occupied" on a bathroom door. Foreign symbols =evil. Explain, please.

Japanese. Foreign symbols = Non-English/Non-Understandable. The normal American viewer wouldn't know what the word was, so they miss nothing. I sure didn't miss it. And weren't you calling for the painting over the word "HELL" a second ago?

Not really. I think what he was saying was that if they absolutely HAD to alter the hell logo on the t-shirts, they should have simply painted it out completely instead of changing it to the HFIL thing. The rock is important as an example of the stupid edits they made. Taken by itself it may not be all that important, but lump all the stupid edits together and you've got a lot of irritation. Painting out the foreign writing falls under "americanizing." See my previous comments about that. (if you can stand to read them again O__o)

on t.v., then the kids want to emulate it". If kids see a man drinking beer then they might want beer too.

Why does everyone think kids will imitate EVERYTHING that they see on tv? Most kids are not as suggestible as people seem to think. My parents were fairly careful about what I was allowed to watch, but still, if I had imitated everything I saw on tv, I'd probably be in jail now. And tv today is raunchier, bloodier, and crueler than ever. If kids just watch regular broadcast tv in the evening, they'll likely see all the kind of things that have been edited from DBZ, and worse besides. And that's not even mentioning cable. If kids happened to notice beer drinking in DBZ, they probably would not think anything of it-- after all, most kids see adults drink from time to time. Besides, the only one on DBZ who drinks much beer is Muten Roshi. Now, who do you think is gonna want to run out and emulate that old geezer?

Although my first beer made me not want to drink anymore.

Same here.

before he nearly conquered all of Europe. Granted, they probably don't have any place doing voice acting, but maybe JUST MAYBE they have talent and may be good! Now if my mother did the voice of Frieza, i'd sh*t my pants everytime he issued a threat.

I think what he was saying was that they DON'T have talent. Although I do think he was being rather vindictive on the subject. Apparently the article skewed things a bit, and implied that nearly everyone hired was without previous experience in the voice acting field. Even if you DO have talent, a lack of experience is likely to hamper performance. This is why VegettoEX was pissed about the implication that FUNi had hired an entire cast of amateurs. It seems this actually was not the case, as Monika Antonelli was kind enough to explain on his editorial page. Kind of makes you wonder how accurate the news really is, doesn't it? >__O By the way, if you are reading this Ms. Antonelli, THANK YOU for writing in and clearing some of the confusion that stupid article engendered. If you have anything more to say about DBZ or FUNimation, please do write in and get it posted. This goes for any other FUNi employee as well. The fans really do want to know what's going on over there. We can't understand your point of view if we don't know what it is.

>But he notes that FUNimation is about to expand into the anime-snob market

>by releasing the unedited Japanese series with English subtitles on DVD.<

that is full of DBZ fans that have seen the fansubs and fandubs and know the story". What he meant (by context) was that he was expanding into a market full of people that think they can run everything 50-times better, despite having no prior experience and believe that they can make all the episodes with a small budget. When you run around saying that you can create more inspired music on your Casio keyboard, then hell yeah, people will call you a snob.

He did too insult us. The implication of that line was that anyone who would rather see the original Japanese version; music, voices, and all, instead of the English dub, is an "anime snob." I don't think the fact that I prefer the Japanese version and want to see it makes me a snob. However, it may not be correct to pin that remark on Mr. Sabat. That line was not a direct quote, so it could well have been the author of the article who put that sweet little epithet in there. In fact, I think it's likely. The tone of the entire piece was rather negative about subbies. As for the casio keyboard remark, it hadn't been made at the time the article was printed, so it couldn't have figured in that line. I'm not going to comment on the music, myself. I prefer the Japanese music, but I like the American score too most of the time(although I occasionally wish they'd turn the damn synthesizer off and give us a little silence). So I'll stay out of the music argument.

haven't we?

Like that? Sorry, you walked into that one. Yes, everyone says stupid things from time to time. However, "absurd comments" are usually the result of speaking without thinking. The "absurd comments" in the script, though, are the result of long hours of writing, adapting, and dubbing. The people involved have plenty of time to consider the dialogue and change any ridiculous stuff. That's why we have a problem with it.

his 1st form, what real villian laughs by saying "Ho ho ho" with a girlish glee? And the fact that Frieza has thick, colored lips doesn't help matters much. When I saw Frieza on a fansub I couldn't tell if he was male or female. Honestly.

When I was a DBZ newbie, back at the beginning of the third season, I thought Frieza was a woman. It was that lady's voice of his. Then I heard the other characters referring to him as a he. "Wait a second!" I thought, "Why are you calling Frieza a he? Frieza's a girl, just listen to her!" I finally realized that he was, indeed, a he-- but that dang voice made it awfully confusing. With the fansubs, I thought his gender was obvious with the first sentence out of his mouth. I have no problem with using females to voice male roles-- but only when it's appropriate for the character. Masako Nozawa's voice is great for Goku/ Gohan/ Goten. Even though it's high-pitched, it still sounds male! I'll admit, the first time I heard it I thought," Somebody cover up the china before it shatters!" ^_^ But it grew on me real fast. What I really like about it is that it's flexible enough to adapt to the full range of Goku's behavior. In other words, it sounds right no matter what he's doing. Goku tends to act childlike and break out in some rather goofy behavior from time to time. That silly high-pitched voice is perfect for those moments. But when things are serious, he speaks in that low, cool, self-assured manner that works perfectly for the situation. His English voice is less versatile. It's sort of the classic stereotype "hero's" voice, except a little higher pitched. It's an OK voice, I think, but when Goku cuts up with his silly stuff, it sounds out of place. While we're on the subject of voices... EX, I guess I will have to give that ONE SINGLE POSITIVE COMMENT about Kaio-sama's English voice. :P I must admit, I like it better than his Japanese voice and slightly better than the first-season voice. I guess you'll have to take me out behind the barn and shoot me. ^_^ I like his Japanese voice just fine, but I prefer the English one because I think it really suits his personality. He's this divine figure, "the Lord of worlds", but he loves to make silly jokes. Likewise, that silly voice also contrasts with his wisdom and power. Kaio-sama is the exception to the rule, however. I think most of the other Japanese voices are much better than their English counterparts.

The scripts ARE NOT ABSURD,

YES THEY ARE!!!!! Sorry, couldn't resist. Dogmatism makes me froth. (DOGmatism? Froth? Rabies? Get it? Kaio-sama would be so proud! =P)

...just the means.

Huh? What's that supposed to mean? >__< What means are you talking about? Aren't the scripts the "means" in the production of the dub?

The end is the same, its just a different way of doing it.

If the end was really the same, we wouldn't be arguing about this. The changes in the script alter the effect of the scenes. I understand that dubbing does place some restictions on dialogue, as the lines need to fit the lip movements of the characters. However, that does not mean the scriptwriters need to do a total 180 from the intent of the original lines. I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about. I'll compare a scene as it was done in the dub and as it was shown in the manga. I don't have the fansub for that episode, so that's why I'm using the manga. As I've previously noted, the material in the manga was apparently reproduced in the anime almost verbatim, so I expect the lines in the anime to be pretty similar to the manga. The scene is from issue 7, volume 1 of the manga. I forget what episode it's from and I don't feel like checking right now. I think episode 6 or 7. OK, this scene takes place after Piccolo has abandoned Gohan in the wilderness. Gohan's stuck on top of the giant rock pillar. It's night, he's curled up trying to sleep, whining about being hungry. Two apples appear in front of him, and he goes to eat them.(FUNi cut out the part with the thought bubble showing the picture of an apple tree, who knows why. I thought it was cute.) He bites into one and finds it's sour. (another one of those ridiculous edits on the part of FUNi, it was another cute moment. The picture of his face in the manga is absolutely adorable!) Well, he's hungry enough to eat it anyway. As he's eating, the shot switches to one of Piccolo, who's watching from a distance. Here's his line from the dub: "I know it's hard now, but I'm watching over you." A nice sentiment that doesn't quite match his bared teeth.^__~ Anyway, the scene moves back to Gohan, who has finished his apples and gone back to sleep. The camera pans back to show Piccolo again, who says, "Sleep well... my little friend. ARRGH GAG RETCH SPEW---- oh wait, that's me. =P Here's the dialogue from the manga, as translated by Viz--- who, take note, claims not to edit the dialogue at all. Here's Piccolo's first line, as he's watching Gohan eat: "Cursed brat... is there no end to it?" The next line, after Gohan has fallen asleep: "But wot you well, this is the LAST time... if you cannot survive on your own after this, it only confirms that your uses are as limited as I first thought." Now, if you can't see the difference between these two scenes, I'll have to check your lobotomy scars. The change in tone is dramatic, and it completely alters the viewer's perception of Piccolo. The dub makes it look like he immediately cared about Gohan, whereas the manga makes it clear that he initially regards Gohan as a burden and a nuisiance. He has no interest in whether Gohan lives or dies, save as it may impact the coming fight with the saiya-jins. This makes his eventual sacrifice for Gohan all the more striking. In the dub it doesn't seem like it would be all that out of character for him, so it doesn't seem all that impressive. They didn't HAVE to change the dialogue this way. Piccolo was not speaking aloud in this scene, he was thinking. So they didn't have to make the lines match any lip movements. I can't think of any reason why the dialogue was changed so dramatically, except that they must have decided they wanted a kinder, gentler Piccolo. This really makes me mad. I don't LIKE Piccolo kinder and gentler, I like him rougher and meaner. What, did they think we couldn't take it? It's impossible to really appreciate the depth of the change he undergoes if we can't see just how BAD he was at the start. So yes, FUNi has been changing the characters. And this is not the only example I could give you; they have done it to nearly all the characters at some point. The frustrating thing is that in most instances, the changes ruin some of the more striking aspects of the characters. It's the usual efforts of American tv producers to acheive uniform national blandness.

And what is absurd about saying "I eat really healthy foods!"? It shows that Goku actually cares about his body and that maybe, JUST MAYBE, that he maintains his incredible power due to a great training regimen and proper eating habits. I mean, look at Guldo after he went on that all chiliburger diet...^_^

What's absurd about it? Since when does Goku give a rat's patootie what goes in his mouth? If it's not nailed down, he'll eat it... and ask for thirds. It's one of his shticks which has been characteristic of him ever since the beginning of dragonball.

And the voices? HA! DBZ, in-between dialogue, is nothing but a bunch of people grunting, moaning or straining. They are either distressed, raising their powerlevel, hurt, punching, surprised, exasparated..."Grrrr.....Grrrr....Grrr....", you don't have to be a god of voice acting to be able to make that kind of noise.

No, but it sure sounds better if you've got SKILLZ!! They do not have to grunt constantly. I laugh at a lot of the fights on the dub because it sounds so silly: OH!AH!EEH!OO!OH! non-stop. I laughed at this spot in the Dallas Observer article: >The scorching criticism can perhaps best be summed up by one Web posting, the eight -point "Rules and Notations of FUNimation" that includes the following fictitious guidelines supposedly posted on the Fort Worth office walls: ..."7. When a character makes a facial expression, he MUST be saying something. Piccolo grits his teeth: 'RRRrrr.' Kuririn shakes his head: 'Uh-HUH."< I laughed at this line because I had had the EXACT same thought. The Japanese language version makes much more sense. Characters are allowed to be quiet even when the camera is on them, and the fights don't have near as much ridiculous grunting.

might as well, because dubs are coming whether you like it or not. Love it or lump it.